THA S02 EP#36 - Feel It to Build It: How Immersive Storytelling Makes Values Personal

Most people try to change their behavior by thinking differently. Amir Berenjian thinks you have to feel it first.

In this episode of The Habit Architect, Michael Cupps sits down with Amir Berenjian, CEO and co-founder of REM5 Studios, to talk about what happens when you stop trying to explain an experience and actually let people live it. Amir has spent the last decade building immersive VR content that bridges the gap between a photograph and a felt memory, and the results are hard to argue with.

The conversation covers how the brain stores experience differently when you're inside it versus watching it, what it takes to get politicians and major funders to actually feel why ending polio matters, how the Minnesota United used VR to turn a stadium tour into a sponsorship tool, and why Amir believes spatial computing is heading the same direction the internet did in the 1990s. Whether you believe it or not is almost beside the point. The train is already moving.

Cupps and Amir also get into what this means for anyone trying to build habits tied to things they haven't experienced yet, and why, if you can feel the outcome before you reach it, the commitment to get there tends to hold.

Connect with Amir Berenjian: linkedin.com/in/amirberenjian

REM5 Studios: rem5studios.com

This Show is sponsored by TimeBandit.io

Check out our Live Show Events here: The Habit Architect Live Show

Subscribe to our Newsletter: The Habit Architect Newsletter

Transcript

Hello, and welcome to The Habit Architect. We're v- glad to have you here today. It's a beautiful day here in North Texas, and I hope it is wherever you are. A couple of things. We've had some really good shows recently that had a lot of comments, a lot of follow-up from it. One thing I just wanna mention, we appreciate that. Cupps: 0:23

We appreciate all the views after the live event as well. Go out to your favorite podcast platform that you use to listen to us, and just do a rating and a and p- subscribe and pass, and then share it with 10 friends. That's all I'm asking today. So no it really does help us if you could rate us, you could you could share it. Cupps: That does does help us build a better platform here for more guests, et cetera. Additionally real quick, and I'll get the commercials out of the way if you do need to go look at the priority matrix we're talking about priorities a lot lately, especially in the AI world. The technology's coming at us so fast that there's a lot of ideas, and you have to prioritize those. Cupps: We did a podcast, Flora and I, a couple of weeks ago that talked about using the priority matrix. So go out to timebennet.io. You can get it for free, and it will help you start organizing your thoughts around

priorities. And my cat is yelling at us, or rather, sorry, my daughter's cat is yelling at us here. Cupps: If you hear that, my apologies. So today we're gonna talk about really feeling what you're doing to get a better outcome and maybe that's too broad of a statement. But we talk a lot about, in order for habits to stick, in order for you to really go through a transformation, whatever that may be, if it's health or if it's something else if you don't feel it, if it's not tied to your values, then most likely you're gonna have s- a lot of challenges to get there. Cupps: 1:23

It's when people actually identify with the objective is when they really come through in, in, in keeping their habits, building habits to sustain whatever it is they're trying to do. And our guest today is is gonna talk about how he has put together programs using VR technology, and it's about helping people feel the outcome, and that when they do that, that he has better success. Cupps: And so far... So I'm just gonna bring him out. Rim5 Studios, welcome to Amir, and he's gonna introduce himself because I don't think I could even do justice with some of the great things that he's done. So when we when you get him from backstage, we'll talk about that. Amir: Hello, Amir.

Nice to see you. Hey. Amir: Good morning. Great to see you too. Thanks for having me. Cupps: Absolutely. This is a great topic, and it's not a topic we've talked about here on, on the podcast. We talk a lot about how that we can adjust our behavior to do new things, to do better things, whatever it is that people have in mind, but we haven't talked about this injection of... Cupps: 2:23

And I like this core concept of, you have to feel it to build it, and that's just a, that's a great concept. So why don't we start by who you are, how you got there, and then what you- your firm does? Amir: Yeah. So my name is Amir Branjian. I'm the CEO and co-founder of Rim5 Studios. I got into the immersive technology space about 10 years ago, and the thesis was a complex yet simple one, and that's that how we approach the world and the things that we know are shaped through our experiences. Amir: And when I tried this technology for the first time in 2016 My mind got wrapped around, this is the first tool that can actually

help us democratize these experiences and provide accessible access to experiences in a way that is profound. And so through the combination of those two theories, experiential learning theory, and this tool that can democratize experiences, you have yourself the ultimate learning tool that exists. Amir: So fast-forward 10 years from now, 10 years from then we are producing immersive experiences that help bridge that gap between the photograph and the lived experience. Cupps: 3:23

Yeah. That's fantastic. And I think you're right. And I just, it just made me think of something. I've struggled with learning French, and maybe I should look into it a different way, as opposed to the app on my phone that doesn't stick. Cupps: Maybe there's a different way I can, I could be learning that. So that's fantastic. A- how did you get into this? H- o- other than when you tried it for the first time, were you already... Did you have a tendency to focus on teaching and learning or experiences? What was the background there? Amir: Yeah, I like to go all the way back to, I'm a early '80s kid, and so we kinda straddle that we didn't have technology,

then we did- Yeah ... world. Pre-social media, post-social media. So I've always been And then I've always been a tinkerer and playing with the latest technology. Amir: And And then for me, also, I'm not a big textbook person either. Yeah. And so when I tried this technology for the first time the light bulbs kept going off that I couldn't ignore and left my career in the business world to to figure out what role could I play in this space? Amir: 4:23

And 10 years ago this tech just wasn't accessible. It was very expensive. It was clunky. The software market was fragmented. And so essentially what I did in the early days was set up a computer lab, like what a computer lab was in the '80s, right? So we had a 8,000 square foot facility, many headsets already set up, and then we would have companies and schools and consumers come to us. Cupps: Yeah. Amir: And then the thesis was we'll listen to the market. We'll try to understand where the demand is and what is good design, what is bad design, what's resonating with people, what's sticking with

people, and then let's use that knowledge to start producing content. Yeah. And then so about five years ago, we started producing content, and fast-forward to today everything exists outside of the four walls of our office. Cupps: 5:23

Yeah. And you've done some great programs that I wanna get to in a moment, but let's g- let's go back to the basic thesis there about learning. Y- you learn by experiences. Can you just expand on that a little bit? Obviously some of the programs you've talked about where you're taking it into countries for various reasons that I don't think people associate with VR technology, but just cover that. Cupps: W- how do, why do people learn better when they experience it? Is it, is there science to it? Amir: Yeah, and I will, I'll caveat all of this with I don't have a PhD in this. I have a lot of real world experience. I have a lot of anecdotal experience in this. But, as a human, can you think of a... Amir: Have you... What was the last place you traveled to, Michael, that you found to be, like, interesting and eye-opening? Cupps: Oh, that's a great question. But I think I was just down on Galveston Island this week, and I always find something different there and I enjoy it. There's just a peace there, Amir:

yeah. And so now, say we were having coffee, and you were trying to explain it to me and how the way it made you feel. Yeah. And the emotions that it brought forward, or the memories that you had there. If... I- it's very hard to do. It's almost impossible to articulate that. And if you were able to put a headset on me, as silly as it may look, as we sit at this coffee shop and are talking, and you actually- Yeah Amir: 6:23

transported me there, right? Yeah. I immediately would go, "Oh, I get it now," right? And bridge that gap in a way, right? And so the deeper science is that in any moment, we are spatially mapping the environment that we're in, right? When I'm trying to recall emotions or recall memories, being on a 2D chat, like we... Amir: The irony of this chat right now is that my brain isn't storing this information the same way as if we were sitting across the table from each other. And when you're actually doing that in VR, your brain can't delineate, isn't delineating the difference. Yeah. And you can recall that information, you can recall that

emotion. Amir: I'm working on a project right now in the medical oxygen space, and one of our clients had demoed the experience with their family members. Yeah. And there's a character in there named Owen who who requires oxygen to survive, essentially. And she had put the headset on her husband to demo it, and about three days later- Roughly. Amir: 7:23

Can't remember the exact story. A couple days later, they're sitting there having breakfast, and the husband brought up Owen, right? Yeah. And so it's those type of anecdotal experiences- Yeah ... that tell us like, hey we're doing our job in terms of really creating more lasting impact than seeing a slideshow. Cupps: Yeah. That's amazing. And you're right, because I was looking at my pictures from m- my trip back. I came back last night, and I, and then, and I look at the sunsets, 'cause that's what on that island, on the west part of the island where we have the sunsets are un- it's something I can't describe. Cupps: And I take pictures of them, and they, the pictures are nice, but if I ha- if I showed it to you, you'd go, "Yeah, that's just a sunset." And, but you

didn't feel what I felt. So I get that completely, and I'll Amir: caveat this again, though. I'm not I'm not implying that VR is as good as the real thing, right? Cupps: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Amir: What we're trying to do is we're trying to bridge the gap. Cupps: Yeah. What I heard with Owen, though, is, is- I think empathy is the right word. It can give people a different perspective to empathize with other situations, which I think we all see that in the world today. Cupps: 8:23

We could all empathize a little more because of the, just the dividedness of our country and people and certainly politics and things like that. But what I heard you say with that Owen project is it's helping people understand a perspective that they didn't have before, right? Amir: Yeah. That's right. Amir: And the other, as I'm kinda thinking out loud here too the other thing that if I showed you a video documentary, 2D video of, a- about the medical oxygen challenges, I would have that experience framed so that you're focused on exactly what I want you to be focused on as a storyteller. Yeah. But what I

find most fascinating with immersive is that you're in there, right? Amir: It's raw, right? You're in there. We're not framing... we're framing the shot to some extent. Yeah. But if we do too much Hollywood, it doesn't feel real, so we tend to leave everything pretty raw. But what I find that when people take the headset off, they're noticing things that I didn't even notice as, myself and my team as the filmmakers. Amir: 9:23

That wasn't our intention, but that's what they picked up on as the person experiencing. And that's so much more akin to real life- Yeah... than watching a more framed experience. Cupps: Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah, I didn't think about that. That's fantastic. You're right. We think about what we wanna show somebody, and it's the s- it's the experience around it that makes it meaningful for them, I think so. Cupps: So tell us about a couple of projects. Polio's Last Mile sounds amazing. Can you... and then we, you have a few others we can talk about just because I think it'll put perspective around what you're doing. Amir: Yeah, for sure. I think that, Yeah, Polio's Last Mile was a project

that started in 2023. Amir: We connected with the with the Gates Foundation in 2023. They've been spending a lot of time over the last 40? I guess since 1988, the Global Polio Eradication Initiative started, and since then polio cases have dropped by 99.9%. But in 2020, the healthcare system was fairly stressed for obvious reasons around the globe, and there were some setbacks. Amir: 10:23

And so we came really close to eradicating polio, took a few steps back, and then now we need to make one final push to actually end the job. And it's a noisy world out there, so how do you cut through, right? Yeah. And how do you get the politicians, how do you get the large institutions, how do you get the large funders to focus on what's happening on the front lines of the fight to end polio? Amir: Because people aren't traveling to these countries in the way that they used to. They aren't going to the front lines and seeing it in person the way that they used to, and so let's use this VR technology to bring it to them. So in fall of 2023, we

went and we documented a door-to-door immunization campaign where they immunized seven million kids over a four-day period. Amir: And then we started bringing that to these large events where funders and politicians and other policymakers gather, like the World Health Assembly or UN General Assembly in New York. And we use this technology to essentially transport them to the front lines to reconnect with this mission and the why, right? Amir: They're sitting there, and we can sit in a boardroom and look at charts on the page. Cupps: 11:23

Yeah. Amir: But we're not getting at our, like our human side of like why are we doing this and what are, how it loses that human connection in the way that that's really all that matters, right? Amir: Yeah. Is the why. You stand in a circle of kids that are showing you their pinkies that were marked by the healthcare worker that just gave them their immunization. You wanna reach out and high five and hug the kids, and how do you take the headset off and say that, "No, this isn't a priority," right? Amir: You can't as a human being. Yeah.

And so we, that experience has been shown at I don't know, upwards of 60 events in the last two years. And it's been incredible. And the tech has evolved to a way that we can do that in a way that is easy to do, right? We're traveling in a couple days here to Taipei, and I have 30 headsets sitting on the table back here that are all we're gonna be packing suitcases full. Amir: 12:23

We'll get there, we'll make sure the headsets are charged, and then we're kinda off and running. Yeah. And our average user is 50 plus in, Wow ... in age, which is, again, something that you wouldn't assume- No, you wouldn't ... about the world's most futuristic technology. It's fairly easy to use because you're using your body in a natural, organic way. Amir: You're not swiping on a screen. You're using your head to look around, and you're reaching out and grabbing things to to interact. Cupps: Yeah. Yeah, that's fantastic. And the age thing is a, that is a shocker, 'cause all we ever hear, all we ever see is the silly videos of grandma putting VR on and pu- accidentally punching their kid or something like that. Cupps:

It's not it's always viewed as- n- that demographic not know- not knowing how to use it, but it sounds like it, they're embracing it there. Yeah. Amir: Totally. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. And then one other thing I wanna just to go back to some of the conversation we were having in the backstage with the World Cup here coming to the US- Yeah Amir: 13:23

right? Yeah. This same concept rings true for enterprise as well, for companies that are selling a product like a professional sports team, right? Yeah. And so we've done some work with the Minnesota United here, the MLS club in Minnesota, where their stadium experience is amazing. Amir: It's a beautiful stadium. The energy is prof- it is so cool. You don't have to be a soccer fan, you just have to be a human that likes good vibes. And so how do you tell that story, right? And so we went and filmed a piece a while back where it was the game day experience. Amir: What's the stadium like when nobody's there? When the first players show up and start stretching, and walk into the locker room and see their freshly pressed jersey up on the locker room. It's

just it's so profoundly emotional and memorable. You don't have to be a sports fan to get hyped up by it. Amir: And then they brought that experience around to different events, Yeah ... and also in courting new sponsors. Again- ... to again, how do we, how do we- Yeah ... bring that PowerPoint to life? How do we make that PowerPoint emotional? How do we make that PowerPoint real? 'Cause that's when people act, that's when people make moves, is when they're feeling something. Cupps: 14:23

Yeah. That's amazing, and I d- you- i- I got a light bulb moment there. You're right. So th- from a sponsorship perspective, they, to get their money's worth, so to speak, if you wanna call it that, they... giving an experience of that brand associated with s- the MLS experience is beautiful. Cupps: That's great. Yeah, that's fantastic. And is that how it, D- do you normally, Are you equipping a company or a person or a group or a project with the equipment and the experience yourself, or do they... i, it's not a self-serve thing, right? You wouldn't make your own experience. You'd use somebody like your studio to do that, right? Amir: Yeah. It's it... So that's the bottleneck that is becoming easier every

single day, is the... It's like building a website, right? If you were, went to go build a website in the '90s, it was very expensive, everything was custom, right? Yeah. Fast-forward to today, you and me could be like, "Hey, I have an idea for a website," and by the time we're off this phone call, we have this professional, beautiful- Yeah Amir: 15:23

looking thing. We're still in the early days of immersive tech to build these- Yeah ... apps. But the technology is evolving every single day as we move towards this new new paradigm of spatial computing. And so today we produce the experience, and then we set up our client to then distribute it, right? Amir: Okay. So think of you have a suitcase with 10 headsets, and when you go to the event, you now pull this out and you're all set up and ready to go. Because people don't have, the market for our work with people that have headsets at home doesn't exist yet, which is fine. Yeah. And so we are a traveling, traveling circus, if you will, bringing the headsets to the events and solving that accessibility problem that way. Cupps: Yeah. Exactly. And then it can bring... I was thinking about we went to an art show

in South Dallas that was w- that was brilliant, and th- there was a VR part of it that, and that's where all the kids were. And they, y- and I'm... I don't know if this sounds awful, but the demographic probably is they didn't have access to that technology at home. Cupps: Most of us don't, right? But that, they were enjoying that, that art in a new way, and I bet the next time there's an art exhibit come through they're gonna wanna participate again, right? Because they felt it. Amir: 16:23

Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah, I love it. And all it takes and there's a lot of it's really easy to knock the technology because y- nobody looks cool wearing a VR headset. Amir: Yeah. And everyone's tried that one thing 10 years ago that was, you know- Yeah ... made them not feel good because it was a rollercoaster or something like that, right? Yeah. And so really all it takes to change somebody's mind is one good immersive experience, and they go, "Oh, I get it now." Yeah. The problem is that takes time, right? Amir: Somebody- Yeah ... 'cause the tech isn't as accessible as maybe a smartphone was as we were going through that adoption cycle. Cupps: Yeah. May... Can you put that in

context of the there's another project the I'm m- may not say this Porter Levee. And so what was that? Cupps: Were you, w- were you taking the, y- your traveling circus, you said, you're taking that to this event? Just tell us how that worked. Amir: 17:23

Yeah. So Porter Levee was we'll call it chapter two to Polio's Last Mile, whereas Polio's Last Mile was really focused on how do we show people, how do we highlight the heroes on the front lines to eradicate polio through a national immunization campaign? Amir: Where they mobilized 10,000 people over a four-day period. And a Porte LaVie was actually just across the border from Zambia in the Democratic Republic of Congo, where they have a lot of leadership, and there's a lot of leadership in Africa that have not been to a lot of these places in DRC. It's a very large country. Amir: And what we wanted to do is show people even country leadership, how challenging it

is to reach some of these communities of their own people. And so we documented a team moving hundreds of miles across the country, having to navigate cars that that break down or roads that we're gonna take. Amir: 18:23

We were there during rainy season and, we might have grand plans to go reach this village 100 kilometers this way, and it rains and that road is gone, right? Or we have to take a ferry across a river and a part is down on that, so now we're stuck on the bank for five hours or a day. Amir: Yeah. And then once we get on these small boats, we have to go and essentially search for these floating islands with these other children on them. So really show in a visceral way how hard it is to reach these children, and ask for the resources- Yeah ... to continue to do that. 'Cause for something like polio and some of these other, Yeah Amir: Challenges until you actually have full coverage, nobody's safe. Cupps: Yeah. Amir: Is the thesis, right? It even impacts... the polio was found in

the, I think it was, what? In the wastewater in New York a couple years ago and some other for me being born in the '80s, polio was never a part of the discussion- at all. But it wasn't that long ago that it was a big part of the discussion. I was at my kid's school had 100-year anniversary party, and you could see the news clippings from the fifties, '50s, where they brought the polio vaccine to the school. So it wasn't that long ago, and we're just trying to remind people that, hey, until we reach all of these children nobody's safe. Cupps: 19:23

Yeah, exactly. And that's, it's interesting the spectrum you've talked about just in this short amount of time. You've, you've talked about sports and you've talked about, eradicating polio. I mean- Do you see it the social justice not, maybe not social justice, it's good is, there's several things that I think we have people that pass bills that don't even really identify with the problem. Cupps: This would be an, a way to show them that. But so where do you see the momentum going? Do you see it going towards that social aspect, or do you still see it in the entertainment area first? Amir: I think culture is colliding with both of those, right? Yeah. If you think

about the businesses with a purpose, right? Amir: Yeah. Where's the line there, right? Like for example, I know TOMS the shoe company they did a VR experience because so much of their work, they were the ones that really pioneered the when you buy a shoe, we donate a shoe. Yeah. But they were like, how do we tell that story to you might buy their shoe because you love that thesis, right? Amir: 20:23

Yeah. You love that mission, but you're not really connected to it. You don't really know. You don't really feel it. You're just taking that leap of faith. And so they're like, "Hey, let's use VR to actually connect our customers with our mission." At the end of the day, we're trying to sell more products- Yeah Amir: but we're also doing something good at the same time. So this is again where I struggle as an entrepreneur because- Yep ... where is that line? But at the end of the day, if we go back to how we opened the discussion today, it's about democratizing experiences. Yeah. And that applies to so many different things- Yeah Amir: that on the surface, it's like

one is sports and one is global healthcare. Yeah. That through line that we talked about at the beginning is the same for both of them, right? They're trying to tell a story. They're trying to connect somebody with their mission. And so that's what we're trying to do. Amir: 21:23

And I think that there's a bunch of brilliant people in my space that are finding little pockets of- Yeah ... where they can provide value there. For us, it's really been focused on people that are trying to tell a story that also have live events to be able to- Yeah ... tell that story at. Yeah, that's- And that's where we really succeeded. Amir: Post-2020- Yeah ... coming out of COVID in-person events have just come roaring back, and that's where we do really well, 'cause people are looking for more interesting, engaging ways when they have people captive. Yeah. And this is a great tool to do that. Cupps: Yeah. That's fantastic. And I, and I do think, I Cupps: The way you drew that story out I think it's a ... You're right. The sporting events are a great vehicle for that because s- some of these sports leagues are huge philanthropists as well. They get in the community. They do things in the community. The

individual athletes are looking for opportunities to help and stuff like that. Cupps: So linking those two becomes almost not automatic but connected in a way that they could do that because that's ... we do see the good stories that, the NFL Man of the Year or whatever, and they usually focus on what they're doing in their community. Cupps: Now you can bring that to life, right? Amir: 22:23

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll even throw another third leg in there, too, right? That, again, is the same thesis but a very different industry. We do some work with manufacturing companies. And one a client of ours is a food manufacturing company where they really focus on, the cow is where it all starts, right? Amir: Yeah. And the milk of the cow. And they use, they pride themselves on, family, third-generation farmer, bringing these cows up, which ultimately results in their product being a better product. But how do you get that end user to go spend time on that farm with that third-generation farmer and understand their why- Yeah

Amir: to really connect you to that product? So again, now we're talking about milk. Yep. What does milk have to do with pro sports and polio? Yeah. Yeah. Nothing to face, but in terms of the role that we play in that equation, is we're just bridging the gap between the end user and that that organization's why. Cupps: 23:23

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's becoming more evident that shoppers now will have loyalty if they understand the story behind it. And before, maybe, like you were saying, in the '80s, people just got the funny box or the lowest price or whatever the reason was. There wasn't really a story behi- behind any of those aisles, right? Cupps: It was just stuff. And I think people are now shopping with intent that they support a particular vendor or s- or purpose or what have you. So I think that's an interesting thing for the manufacturers too. There, there's a big story to tell there, and when we, you get into these debates about Made in America versus something else, it, that doesn't really matter. Cupps: It's about what the, what that whole value chain is, right? So that's great. I think that's an

interesting angle for this. It's g- I'm really enlightened by this conversation. I'm excited about it because I have tried it a few times at a, at an event and something like that. Cupps: But I, if I were just, today I said I wanna learn more about VR and figure out, where I can get involved or where I can at least experience it more," what would you say to somebody? Amir: 24:23

Yeah, I think that there, part of our biggest challenge in our space is there's no there's no way to replace actually trying it yourself and formulating your own opinion- Yeah Amir: on it. And so the hardest part, there's two parts there. One is access to a headset, and then the second thing is what you're actually experiencing. Amir: 'Cause there is not so great VR. Yeah. I wanna be polite. And then there's also VR that resonates with you and what your personal interests are- right? Which will then, bring that experience from a 10 to a 12, right? Yeah. And I think that there are more exhibitions and stuff popping up

around the world. Yeah. But you really gotta kinda seek them out. You the art space is- Yeah ... is pretty is very good at leveraging these kinda new tools. Amir: 25:23

Yeah ... the other Best Buy stores I think will do demos of the Meta Quest headset. Yeah. They're a little bit more fragmented, but also the other thing I tell people, too, is go to the Apple Store- Yeah ... and you can go and sign up for a demo of the Apple Vision Pro. They're set up to do a really nice curated 30-minute session that will- If you take the time to go and do that, which is an investment of time and energy you will view this technology in a different light forever. Cupps: Yeah. And I would encourage, we have a lot of business leaders watch this show as well, and I would challenge them that they need to go figure out if it can help them with their brand and their their own business. Because there is something to be said that if you can help somebody experience what it is you do, sometimes it may be an accounting software, which m- doesn't sound very exciting, but maybe there is something very important or real to it that, in the hands of your studio you could

figure out how to tell that story, right? Amir: Accounting software might be a stretch, I'm gonna be honest with you. I don't wanna oversell it. But if you think about it like, i- if you think about, say we're back in the '90s and we're having this discussion, and I'm telling you as a brand you need to have a website, right? Yeah. Amir: 26:23

You're like why do I need a website?" And then the discussion was, "Why do I need social media? That doesn't make any sense." It wasn't that long ago that the people bringing that up in the board meetings were getting laughed out of the room. Yeah. Yeah. And so as we think about where we're going with all this tech, the next way in which we communicate is through spatial computing. Amir: And so if you're not there as somebody, as a non-profit, as a for-profit, if you're not there in the same way that you are on social media today- Yeah ... you're gonna get left behind. I can't tell you how long that's going to be, but they're- Yeah ... it's no surprise that a lot of big brands are building immersive experiences, right? Amir: Yeah. That have like feeling and emotion. Like Porsche, for instance, right? Like they have- Yeah ... a full immersive experience that they've worked on with

Apple. And Gucci and other big brands that can afford to be a little bit more experiential today. Yeah. But they're skating to where the puck is going, as a nice Minnesota reference. Cupps: Yeah, there you go. Yeah. The yeah, and the Wild beat the Stars this year, I think oh, the but the it's interesting, the not-for-profit, I think I think not-for-profit leaders need to think, consider how they whether it's through donations or what have you get into this. Cupps: 27:23

Because that sector alone, that, it is about how people feel about solving that problem, whatever that problem is, polio to other things, right? So that's interesting. But so let's tie it back to, to, what I talk about a lot with with our clients and guests are about habits, values, kinda structure to, to do better, to make tomorrow better than today and whatever that means to you. Do you see VR coming into that? I know that Flora, our producer, would probably wanna talk about the therapeutic side of it, but where do you see it in kind of behavior areas? Amir: Yeah. It's a big question, right? Amir: Because it kinda comes back to the really big picture is our behavior is

shaped and our lens at which we look at the world is shaped through our experiences, right? And so if we can now provide these, we'll call it artificial experiences, right? Where is the line there in terms of how our brain is evolving and- Yeah Amir: 28:23

ultimately our behavior is evolving. And so I think that there are two sides to this, right? There is the very tangible side, and then there's the intangible side. On the tangible side you have think of let's distill it down to just, like- training on a job and you're working with a piece of machinery, right? Amir: Yeah. Yeah. You can go and do that in the real world. It's fairly expensive, can be fairly unsafe. There you, there are a lot of risks associated with failing. But if you did that- Yeah ... in an immersive environment, you can do it from your couch, you can do it over and over again. Yeah ... you can fail safely. Amir: We can track all of the data to help you- Yep ... become better and understand where you're doing good,

where you're not doing so good. And in theory, we can get you up to speed much more efficiently. And so that is in a very, we'll call it maybe more boring, but that's a very tangible way to talk about behavior change with- Yeah Amir: 29:23

immersive tech. Yeah. And then on the other side, you have this empathy piece, which is very, a very complex word in and of itself. Yeah. But as we think about technology evolving and AI evolving at a rapid pace what are we left as humans to contribute to the equation, right? And a big piece of that is our cultural competence, emotional intelligence. Amir: Yeah. And those are hard things to simulate. Those are hard things to to create safe environments for, right? And so we can use that technology to, Yeah ... to again bridge that gap in a way that, that I think is pretty exciting. And then yeah. So back to your original question that's a big question. Amir: Yeah. Because and I get asked similar questions a lot, it, about that, and then I kinda, depending on what

mood I'm in, I can kinda push back and be like, "We don't have a damn clue what the phone has done to us and our behavior yet." We can try to quantify it, but we're barely starting to unpack and scratch the surface- Yeah Amir: of the impact it's had on society and our the way that we, the way that we act- Yeah ... and the way that we move through the world. And so- Yeah ... how can I, how can we expect to know what the next generation of technology is going to do when we haven't even figured out what the current generation is doing? Cupps: Yeah. No, that, that's, that's- I don't mean Amir: 30:23

to be, like, an alarmist or a- no, not at all. Fair ... pushing back on the question. It's Cupps: fair. Yeah, it's absolutely fair. We've talked about doom scrolling and everything o- on various versions of ost- this podcast even and like you said, that doesn't even scratch the surface of what b- it's done to us. Cupps: The I do Amir: what- Yeah. I'll say one, one other, one other quick co- just so i- it it's on record, right? I'm an optimist with the technology, right? Yeah. And I view this stuff and I wake up every morning and I'm like, "How can I use this technology to make the world better?" Amir: And I think there are a lot of people that do think that

way. 'Cause I know that technology can get a bad rap, right? Yeah. And but I can only control my little bubble that I live in, and that's how I view the technology, and I've seen results so far, and that's what motivates me. Cupps: Yeah, absolutely. I, and I think that, I think you're on the right track there. It's be open to learning, and then hopefully there's more investment coming that way, whether it's through nonprofits, government or companies doing it, because there's, there is a way that the experience can lead to b- bigger and better things. Cupps: 31:23

And I appreciate that. Just out of curiosity since we're... by the way, we had a couple comments on from the different team. One of them didn't put their name, but they said it's an amazing conversation, which led me to think about, hey, how do people find you guys if they wanna start a conversation with you? Cupps: What's the best way to reach you guys? Amir: Yeah, you can reach out on our website. You can contact us there, or social media, LinkedIn. I'm fairly, I try to be active on LinkedIn. And yeah, we love to just kinda spitball ideas with people, too, because it is new technology, right? Amir: And the technology is only good if we

have good use cases for it, and people that are willing to champion it. And there are no bad ideas. Yeah. There are impractical ideas, but there's no bad ideas in our space. And yeah, don't be shy. Reach out. We love to, to try to understand the why. Amir: 'Cause we get a lot of phone calls on "Hey, we want to do this with VR." And then it sounds cliche and cheesy, but we have to step back to be like what problem are you trying to solve with this?" Yep. And then oftentimes we can find a different path that will actually be better. But but it's it's an amazing time with the technology. Amir: 32:23

In spite of the headlines, the tech is as accessible as it's ever been. Yeah. People are as open as they've ever been to trying new things. Yeah. And it's an exciting time. Cupps: Yeah. And it's an opportunistic thing. Peop- there, there are kids everywhere that can experience things that they'd never be able to experience, and I think that's a beautiful thing, because- I had an- Cupps: that leads them to what they, to aspirations, and aspirations change the world, Amir: so I had a weird... Your c- your colleague from Argentina, I have a seven-year-old who's a big soccer fan, and I was laughing because

she said she's in Argentina right now. My kid went to school this morning with a full Messi kit. Amir: Argentina Messi kit on. But last week, Apple launched an experience that they went behind the scenes at PSG. And so they're... Oh, I'm sorry. I'm gonna get I'm gonna get yelled at here. I think it was actually Real Madrid. Is that right? No, it was PSG. It was PSG. And so they they did an incredible experience. Amir: 33:23

And so my son got to sit there and- Yeah ... he's on the couch. And we're having, y- he's smiling ear to ear being like, "Oh my gosh, Dad, there's Mbappe." And it's it's ver- And there is a lot of misconception around the technology of get outside and play with your kid. Amir: It's yeah, we do that until, I'm too tired to even play anymore. But then, if we're gonna, if we're gonna have these other experiences, why not actually go transport to one of the most iconic stadiums in the world and see, get behind the scenes at some of the practices with these players to get inspired

by them. Amir: And so it's it's tough to quantify that. Cupps: Yeah. Amir: Yeah. But, we s- we see it every day. Cupps: That's awesome. That's awesome. I ask everybody, every guest personally what's a habit that Amir has that's non-negotiable? Amir: One it coffee, as I sit here and drink my coffee. Amir: 34:23

Coffee. For me probably one through line I like, I try to, a- as I spend a lot of time with technology I s- I spend I try to get a run in, almost every day. I got a four-mile loop that I do. There you go. And I don't even, ... A lot of times I don't even bring my AirPods or listen to a podcast or anything. Amir: I'm just there. I just sit with it and, Yep ... it's a great way to kinda disconnect and be present. And yeah. That's one thing over the years that even with ... now I push a s- a running stroller. That's probably the only thing that's changed. Yeah. But besides that's one thing that I kinda Amir: I can tell if I haven't been on a run in a couple days. Cupps: Yeah. There you go. That's fantastic. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you for talking about VR and what your firm is doing, but also how it's affecting the world, too. And it's exciting to