THA S02 EP#8 - Why AI Projects Fail: It’s Not the Tech, It’s the Team

 Why do AI projects fail when the tech works? 

Michael Cupps and returning guest Tony Castelli, PhD (Rulesware; ex-Accenture, IBM, Pegasystems) explain how change management, trust, and team habits determine AI adoption. We cover shadow resistance, the role of middle management, and simple ways to move from AI drafting content to assisting real decisions. Practical takeaways: continuous learning, smart experimentation, and a people-first AI strategy you can actually run. 

This Show is sponsored by TimeBandit.io

Check out our Live Show Events here: The Habit Architect Live Show

Subscribe to our Newsletter: The Habit Architect Newsletter

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome and why change management matters now
• 1:14 Should AI be making decisions at work?
• 4:28 The “94% fail” headline and what’s really going on
• 7:33 Change management, defined in plain language
• 12:38 Insurance example: silent resistance in the wild
• 23:23 Seven habits to make AI work for people

Transcript

Michael Cupps: 0:25

Hello and good morning. Welcome to the Habit Architect. I'm really excited about today's guest. He's you've, you may have actually seen an episode he was on before, so he's a repeat offender. We're glad to have him back. And the subject we're gonna talk about today is really. Change management is the title of the, is what we're gonna talk a lot about, but why are we talking about that? Because AI is impacting all of our lives. It may be in your job, you may be using it personally. Uh, there's a lot of reasons why AI is impacting the way that we behave these days. And so with that becomes how do we change, how do we change our ourselves, our habits that we associate with? Can we change? Can we remodel our lifestyle? Around this, this new technology and what it does, and particularly in the job. And Tony's really an expert at, at organizational change. And so that's why, uh, we're gonna talk more about kind of in your job, but we'll, we'll, we'll hit some of the things that are individual as well. But as you know, we, a lot of people use AI now, gen AI to write. Email messages or posts or whatever they may do, and we're trusting that, but are we, are we at the point where we're able to trust it to actually make decisions in our job? And that's, that's where change management is either gonna make or break companies deployments of ai. And that's what we're gonna talk about today and I'm glad to welcome back on the, the show, Tony, as, as he comes into the, to the room. Uh, Tony has a, uh, worked in consulting for. Uh, several years, Accenture, Pega, many different, uh, uh, companies. And he's gonna tie, tie that, that experience back into the, uh, into this conversation. So Tony, welcome again. Good to see you.

Tony Castelli: 1:57

Thanks, Michael. Nice to be here. It's, uh, it's, uh, good to be on the show again.

Michael Cupps: 2:00

Yeah, absolutely. I, I appreciate it. And, and, and we've got a different topic than we did the last time, but it's, uh, but it's really everywhere, right? I mean, AI's everywhere, which means that means change for everybody. And so I'm looking forward to talking about it in, in the context of individuals and teams. So, absolutely, so why don't you, I don't know if I did a good introduction. Why don't you do a reintroduction, I said Accenture and Pega and Rulesware, but I don't know if I really hit what you did.

Tony Castelli: 2:25

Yeah, so this is great. So, uh, thanks, c , I think you did a great, great introduction. Uh, just kind of filling in some additional stuff. So my, my background has really started off in education and then I, um, did the crazy move into consulting, working for Anderson, Accenture, uh, for several years. And that's really where I. Um, really specialized in change management for a lot of industries, a lot of companies, you know, over that period of time, you know, I then went into, uh, moved over to IBM, um, and then after IBMI then moved over to Pega, um, where I was doing some, uh, work for about 18 years. And then just most recently I've been with, uh, Rulesware for the last two and a half years. You know, as the EVP of sales and customer success and really enjoying it. And this topic is, you know, it's, even though I, like I said, I'm really passionate about change management, but it's not a topic that, you know, is, you know, is really kind of prevalent, right? I mean, it's more on like it and everyone goes to it. For solving things, but this AI conundrum as I'll call it Yeah. You know, is in, is playing a lot of havoc right now on like what to do and trust and where I go. There's, there's so much stuff going on within, uh, within the world right now. Yeah.

Michael Cupps: 3:33

Yeah. I, yeah, and I like that. I'm looking forward to get into the session. I just wanna mention you'll see it coming across the bottom of the screen. Uh, Tony's LinkedIn, do connect with him. He's a great follow. So do connect with him and, and follow his, uh, his LinkedIn. And also if you have any questions, uh, if you're on YouTube, you can chop, type it in there. If you're on LinkedIn, please do interact with us. Uh, we'd like to know where you're from and if you have a question for Tony, please add that to the chats. So Tony, uh, you know, I recently read a study. I'm sure everybody read it. MIT came out and said a 94% or some crazy number like that. Of gen AI projects failed. Right? And so if you look at that by sheer numbers, that's a colossal disaster. It means a lot of people in corporate America were doing things that didn't turn into productive things, which could impact GDP and a lot of things. But I don't know if I would agree with the number because I don't really know that it was measured because I what, where we have helped a lot of people is back office where AI is doing something. Separately, and then it's, it delivers results. But gen AI is a little different. That's when people get involved. And I'm guessing that's kind of where change management comes into it. But what, why do you think so many are viewed as failures? Uh, you know, I, I would actually kind of agree with you on, uh, on, uh, on your kind of message that you, that you don't agree with it, because I don't know, I, I'd love to actually kind of dig into the MIT study a little bit more to, you know, understand, um, why, you know, that's actually so common, you know, per that study and the report. Um, in general, I think, you know, I kind of go back and let's, let's take the Gen AI and change, take change management out of it. But I think in general. Technology implementations, a lot of 'em fail. Um, and we've talked about this in the past, you know, a lot of 'em fail because they're not looking at holistic kind of approach. But now you bring in AI into that and you look at the gen AI projects as the MIT studies, um, talks about, and you know, saying that, um, you know, except for about 6% they fail. So why is it they're failing? I actually would actually put a correlation, you know, between, you know, it gen ai. Change management as the reason of, probably the reason for the study. And probably the reason of why some of these failures are, is because, you know, they're looking at it as a typical project. Right. Or they're looking at it and they're not implementing change management. You know, as part of it. And as I, you know, you and I were talking just before this, uh, this call, you know, being in change management and like I said, I've been in this industry for like 30 plus years, is, you know, change management was always the. You know, the stepchild when it comes to IT development, right. You know, it's always the technology. You put the technology and then you put the process in, you know, but you forget about the people, right? And change management is all around, you know, the people. So, you know, it's, it's really as far as like they're, they're not really addressing, you know, when you look at the gen AI type of projects or AI projects, you know, there's probably. A lot of companies are not looking at it the right way. Yeah, and I would say the first thing is you need to come up with a strategy, right? Any company that's looking at AI needs to have a strategy, and with that strategy it has to have change management, you know, as part of that. So, you know, you know, the thing is. Traditional change management in the past was all about process and tools. Getting people from point A to point B, you know, with AI it's different, right? So we're talking about continuous change, you know, not a one-time transformation of an implementation, right? So, you know, even when technology is flawless, there's still some challenges in helping your people. And if you don't have change management as part of it, you're gonna have some challenges. Yes. Oh, so I'm sorry. Go ahead. I was just, I was just, could you explain what change management technically is to a person? Like the, the reason I, you, you said something that kind of struck something in me that said, um, I, when you think about it, rollouts, you know, let's say you're getting a new CRM or something like that, and they, they just tell you it's because we're gonna make you more productive. They don't really explain. The rest of it is, is, is, can you take that example maybe and say what is change management in that context? Is it showing people how to use the technology or is it something bigger? It's, it's, it's that and bigger, right? So it's change management is an, I kind of go back to, you know, I, I'm a prodigy of kind of the, back in the eighties and nineties, so, you know, I kind of look at the old kind of people process and technology, right? So, you know, everyone knows technology, getting the technology out there, the processes is defining your processes, whether it's, you know, through a BPM tool or. You know, any other kind of tool that's out there to define your processes, but then, you know, the people aspect is, you know, how do you then, you know, so you look at change management and it's like, how do you actually, you know, address the people? How do you get your people ready, you know, for that change, you know, as kind of, we talked about just a few minutes ago. So it's everything from, you know, making sure that they're skilled up, making sure that. You know, the communication is out there. A lot of IT projects and I would say AI projects fail because, you know, the leadership is not spending the time to make sure that the people understand why they're doing this strategy, how it's actually going to impact them. Right. And that really is kind of the core of change management is really around making sure that the people are engaged, informed, and aligned with what that change is gonna happen. And again, change can be anything from. A technology, you know, a process or you know, AI coming into the world, right? Yeah. So all that plays into what change management is. There's, there's everything from a communication training, you know, stakeholder alignment. Um, there's, there's a bunch of aspects that fit under the umbrella of change management, you know, but in the center, it's all around the people. Yeah. And so, so with that in mind, I, I mean, I was gonna ask you, and you kind of talked about some reasons why projects and big transformations derail, but maybe, uh, let's take that a little further. So they, I mean, it sounds like I, in a smaller company, communication is relatively easy, right? But in the large organizations, you just think it's the technology. So detached from that change effort. Yeah. You know, I, I, I think it's, it, it is, it is from an, from an aspect of, you know, so let me kind of take a step back is from, from my perspective, you know, experience in doing it work and so on is, you know, a lot of things, whether it's AI or just tech in general, right? They don't fail. Right. You know, software is actually really good. All right? So, I mean, I think that you put, you know, a, there's tons of different technologies out there and softwares right? And, you know, from. Looking at implementations, even kind of AI implementations is that, you know, you're not gonna have, it's not the tech that fails, it's not necessarily the process that fails. Yeah. What fails is that people are not embracing it. They're not leveraging it. Right. And you know, I got tons of different examples from, you know, experiences in different industries from financial services, healthcare, insurance. Comms and so on is that they all fail because, you know, they're, they're not really embracing change management, they're not talking to the people, as I kind of mentioned about it earlier. Yeah. So it's, it's a, it's, it's, it's a challenge. I think that AI is actually bringing it even more important. I'm hoping that people are gonna embrace change management more. You know, now that, you know, AI is really disrupting stuff. Yeah, well I think, I think you made me have an aha moment just then.'cause I, a few days ago, or a week ago, I don't remember when I was having issues with my insurance, uh, and they said, go to the portal and do something. And I couldn't get it to work. And I finally called 'em and said, your portal's not working. They said, no, you need to click there. And then it worked just fine, you know, and it, so it really wasn't, the portal wasn't working, it just wasn't working away. I wanted it to work. So it was kind of a, and we probably all had those aha moments, call tech support. And they go, no, just click that button instead. And, oh, there it works. So change management, is it, it, it, it. At a scale is making sure that everybody's clicking the right button, but also understand why they're clicking it that way and stuff like that. So, uh, can you give us a good example of maybe a large company that, that implemented, um, with and with change management, front and center and how that, how that changed things with ai. So a lot of the, sure, absolutely. I can give you several different examples, but, you know, one example is, um, you know, in insurance company, I'm not gonna give names out there. Yeah. So, you know, from, from my perspective is there was this insurance company that, you know, rolled out AI to help underwriters access claims faster. Right. I think in insurance, um, AI is under leverage and underutilized. You know, you think about, and as I said, insurance is one of my background, um, topics and I can talk about a long time. But the thing is, like in, in underwriting, underwriters are sifting and they're collecting a lot of information, right? They're getting a lot of forms, faxes, emails, a lot of documents. You know, if you're in a workers' compensation, you know, you're having. Stacks of documents that you have to review. Right. So where AI is actually, you know, great is AI can actually sift through all the information, summarize it, and pull it together. Mm-hmm. But you have to actually have that trust in there and in for, in, in order for the model to work and leverage ai. You know, you have to make sure that the people understand how it's gonna benefit them, why we're doing this, and how it's gonna save them time. You know, employees, distrust, distrust as far as new technologies, right? And we always talk about change. People are afraid of change and, and, and employees are all the same way. Customers are the same way. So, you know, in this situation from. Uh, this insurance company with underwriters is that they were left waiting the staff to choose not to use it. So the thing is they rolled out this big strategy and so on, and what did the employees do? The employees then went back to their old way of doing things and they weren't embracing it, and they were leveraging the same thing. I kind of look back as, you know, even in. You know, some healthcare and some financial services examples is that, you know, they put in all this different technology and everything, but they still have their post-it notes. Even though they have some button on the screen, they still back to their post-it notes and, you know, use the old system, um, which we gotta get companies to make sure they're turning off their old system so that they don't have that option. But you gotta have the best training, which is change management and, and there on as well. So is, is that putting people first? Uh, when you think about a transformation. It is putting people first and I, and I think that what AI is, it's going to have to focus on that, right? Um, so many, you know, even in, you know, in our, in my job right now in our company, we do consulting, um, in financial services, insurance, and in healthcare. You know, the thing is across those industries is that like everyone thinks that technology is, is the savior, right? Well, let's invest in technology and they have it all wrong. Right. Technology is only as good as the people that you have. Even a small set of people. If you don't have your people focused and understanding and trained and skilled up and involved in kind of that change in that strategy, then you're gonna actually have a lot of problems. So I definitely encourage everyone that's listening. If you don't have a change management practice, or you don't have someone on your team that is, you know, kind of focused on the people you really should. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Good advice. So let, let's turn this on. The leaders, maybe the, because you said something there that you said, you know, people go, oh, if we get this new technology in there, we're gonna be more productive. Right? Or, we're gonna see better returns on whatever. So what, what should, can you kind of get it, uh, from a perspective of a leadership when you're thinking about implementing an AI project, gen, ai, whatever, whatever, whatever. Yeah. Kind of walk us through what they should be thinking about and priorities there. What I would actually kind of turn that around, and I would actually say is to start is you need to understand kind of the gotchas, right? And I think that you need to understand what is preventing kind of, uh, AI and what's preventing kind of projects from being successful and so on, is understanding kind of the. The pitfalls that, you know, companies actually run into. So, you know, I think probably four common pitfalls that I've seen and are pretty common, I think that everyone listening will probably agree on this, is that overpromising, right? Overpromising results of selling realistic exp expect expectations, right? Yeah. Yeah. So what's that really mean? So it's like, you know, it's like you have to get, you know, if an executive's coming in saying, oh, the newest, the latest, we gotta put AI and everything else without. Thinking through how it's gonna affect the people and so on. Yeah. And over promising the benefits of it and, oh, we're gonna grow. It's gonna, your job is gonna be much easier and so on. You have to be honest with it. You have to do your due diligence at looking at, you can't over promise. You have to actually come up with statements like, you know, we're investigating, we're looking at, we want you to be a part of those type of things. Right. The other aspect, another one is ignoring middle management and you know. Controversial. I know a, a lot of companies are letting go of their middle management and it's a shame because middle management is the most important aspects because they are the key from the executives down to the actual people who do the work, right? So, you know, they're the bridge between leadership and staff and, you know, ignoring them are not having them involved in having them. Part of your change management communication around AI is, is, is gonna be a big mistake. The third one is not addressing kind of the biases of AI tools. Right? Right. Uh, which erodes the trust. Right. So, you know, you have to, there's a, like I said, there is, you Google, you look at a bunch of things and you're gonna see a bunch of things around ai and even your MIT study that you kind of reference, it's like it. Gives that like bad note about ai, you know, but you know, the thing is people have biases, right? You know, people are afraid of that change. People are afraid of the new things, the new technology. So you have to address those biases with people. And then the last one is, you know, probably the most common is treating AI adoption, just like any IT project, um, you know, like an A IT project instead of an enterprise wide. Cultural shift. Because if you look at AI and your AI strategy as just a project and not looking at, uh, enterprise shift, you know, within your company, again, we talked about the AI strategy. If you don't look at it that way, you're gonna have some challenges, right? You have to make sure that your employees, the leadership, everyone in the company has that kind of mindset that it is a enterprise wide cultural shift and we're adopting this and we want you to be a part of it. Yeah, so those four gotchas are great. It was over promising, ignoring the middle management layer, uh, addressing the biases and then not treating it just as a technology rollout. Let's say that a company decides to skip one of those, I mean, what, what, what's the outcome? Is it what we hear from MIT then? Yeah, I, I, I, I do think, and again, I, I'm gonna go back to kind of the topic, right? So, you know, technology is expensive, even AI tools and so on, and creating a strategy as tool, right? So, you know, we see a lot of kind of what we call shadow resistance, you know, where employees are quietly biased and so on. But, you know, change management if you don't actually. Incorporate change management into it as I've been kind of kind of preaching, you know, you're gonna have failures and I would say that MIT study and if I dig into it and I will, you know, I actually think that the MIT study is probably maybe a little bit more accurate. And I would say the reason why is because they're not addressing the people, right. They're not having kind of change management as part of. And it's how the people feel it's being done to them instead of with them or, so, maybe That's right. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you, you know, um, cups as far as like, there's a lot of people out there as far as, and, and I, I talk to my friends and I'm sure you talk to your friends and, um, and other companies and so on. You know, the one common. Comment I hear all the time is, was AI gonna re, is AI gonna remove my job? Right? Am I gonna have a job? Right. Are they gonna actually do that? And you know, the thing is, it, it could right. You know, but again, it needs to be put onto the person to develop the skills. I actually think there is, uh, AI is going to, you know, um, help with individuals because I think that in general, a lot of people do very. You know, mundane, you know, tasks and it's those mundane tasks that are, you know, low cost and so on that you know, could be automated, right? Yeah. But really the value is gonna be those individuals that bring kind of strategic thinking and, you know, are skilled up in very specific areas that AI can't actually handle and can't do. So. When you think about it, you've heard this before, is getting the right task to the right person with the right skills, right? So I think that that's where AI kind of helps with this in companies is it takes those mundane, you know, um, very large menial kind of tasks and actually then having AI do it so that, you know, all the important stuff is getting to the right people with the right skills. Yeah. Yeah, that's, and what did you, that, I love the term you used, shadow something, shadow management, shadow of something. Shadow resistance. Shadow resistance. I love that, that, that, that says a lot about what can be happening in, in an organization, uh, when, when change is afoot, right? So, okay, so we've talked about what could go wrong, right? There's a lot of things that if you don't get certain, uh, your, your, your plan, right? It could go wrong. But what does it look like when, when a leadership team or a project team gets it right? Yeah. When, when a project team gets a right and kind of embraces, kind of change management and defines the strategy and looks at it, I think you're gonna have a, a better, well, well oiled machine. I think that, you know, when you're communicating with your employees, when you're getting them involved, I really advocate, you know, with, within my company, within the previous companies I worked for, and clients that I've consulted for. Is, you know, getting, you know, individuals involved. But before you start a project, you need to get, you know, individuals from different organizations, you know, from your lowest, you know, to your kind of your senior management and middle management involved with it. Right? When you get that all together and you get inputs into it, I think that you can really get. You know, a very successful implementation with that strategy. So what it looks like, you know, is adopting AI becomes routine, right? It becomes, you know, everyone's embracing it, everyone understands why we're doing it, and you know, whether it's tied to a technology or just that strategy, I think that what you're gonna see is an organization that is actually. Moving and kind of evolving and instead of actually staying in the dark ages. Right. And I think that there's too many companies that are in the dark age and they've created so many, you know, tech debt with technologies, process debt with so many processes, and they're not really embracing it because they don't have a strategy around it. And they don't have change management where they're pulling people in to understand what needs to be done. Yeah, that makes sense. And, and I, and I was thinking about it while you were talking about that, and I, I, if you think about the way big firms are rolling out. Ai, they, they start with A POC or in a lab or something. So it's kind of this clandestine kind of over here where the IT guys are doing it and then they have success in the lab and they go, oh, well let's just roll it out. And they probably skip all those steps, right? They skip all those steps. Right. You and I. Because they're excited about what it did in the lab and it, and it, yeah. So I, that that's, that's, that's a, a great way of thinking about it. So, all right, so this is a podcast about habit building and habit formation. So I'm wondering if you could tell us kind of the habits of success on this topic. Yeah. So, you know, you know, um, beyond best practices, as we've kind of talked about and you know, about what you need to do, success really depends on. Habits as you talked about. So I think that there's, you know, probably around seven different habits that I'll just kind of end with and kind of really stress is that you need to have is one is, and probably the first one is the habit of curiosity, right? And that's, you know, not just your leadership, but that's the employees in there, right? So you need to have that curiosity, encouraging people to ask, you know, how AI can help me, you know. Be better. Right? Be more efficient, you know, instead of fearing what it might replace or replace me, you look at how I can embrace it to actually make my job faster, make me more, you know, efficient in the work that I'm doing, whatever that work is. Right. The next one is kind of the habit of transparency, right? We talked about this a little bit, is that that transparency is, is so really important. I think that. You know, when you have mistrust, when you have a lot of challenges in your employees. And, and if you are, you know, I would kind of correlate this from an HR standpoint, is that if you have a lot of, uh, uh, your retention is really low, um, because people are leaving all the time, a lot of it is actually probably due to that transparency. Be clear about what AI is gonna do. Be clear in your strategy about. What you're, how you're using ai, right? And that it's going to, you know, help you. It's, it's not going to, it's gonna develop additional skills for you. It's not going to replace you, right? Um, I think the next one is the habit of experimentation. So, you know, test and learn. Embrace it. You know, figure out what works. The thing is. You know, everyone feels like you start down this process and I, I get things are expensive, but you know, you have to make sure that you're building into your project plan. You know, some retrospects, right? Where you're actually stepping back and saying, Hey, is this actually going the way that we want it to go? Right? Are we getting the results right? Are the people in embracing this or do we need to kind of change that? And that kind of goes along with inclusiveness, a habit of inclusiveness, right? Getting involved cross-functional teams that it, the business, the frontline, the operations, getting them involved in kind of that, that strategy. And then, you know, I'll just say continuous learning is probably one of the, the key thing is that. You have, technology is changing. Like I am constantly learning things every single day, you know, on, on the web and what's coming out. There's so much new things. So that continuous learning is really so important from a standpoint. And then the last one I'll say is the feedback. Keep channels open to employees. Let them actually give you the feedback, you know, and making sure that you're asking create that communication plan. Create that avenue that people are allowed to feel comfortable asking a question, whether it's anonymous or in person. You need to create those channels where people and your employees can actually give you that feedback in a, you know, in a non-threatening kind of way. Yeah, that's interesting because I, I think those are great habit discussions and, and many of 'em we talked about before, even on individual things, you know, continuous learning is something where you should all be doing and, and with AI it becomes e even more powerful 'cause you now you can get summaries of things and stuff like that. So you, you can, you do that and then just feedback and, and, uh, ex experimentation is an interesting one, I think. That people overlook even in their personal lives, right? Because you can, uh, you know, we get set, you might hear this a lot with somebody that they're in a rut, right? Well, if they just tried some experimentation, they may not like what they tried, but then they can go on and try something else. So I think those are great. Uh. Great habits of advice, not only for organizations rolling out ai, but just as us as individuals. Let's think about what is our role in this, in this AI transformation, in your job, in your home, in your, you know, whatever it is. I agree. Those, the habit, those habits apply to every, your everyday life, right? Whether it's ai, process, implementation, whatever you do in your job, I think that those habits can actually apply to anyone, you know, doing anything, you know, out there. Yeah. All right, one, one last thought on that and then I've got two questions to ask you, but any last thoughts just to bring home the change management and ai? Yeah. You know, I, I think that, you know, the last thing I would say in kind of closing is on this is AI success equals technology plus people without change management, AI is like an engine without fuel. It's a perfect kind of an analogy and example. Right. So you got this engine that's going and so on, but it is not gonna go without the fuel. It's kind of the same thing, is that if you don't have, you know, when you're applying AI into your organization, if you don't actually have change management in it, you're not gonna go very far. Right. You're gonna stop, you're not gonna go, yeah. Yeah. That's great. That's a great final thought. So my two, two things that I've started asking everybody on the podcast, we didn't, weren't doing this one, the your first show, uh, that you did with us. So the first one is, what is a non-negotiable habit that Tony does every day? A not is I, I, I would think continuous learning, right? It's one of those things is continuous learning. Where is that? Is that I, I, you know, outside of taking care of my own health and so on and going to the gym, you know, the first thing I do is I spend probably a good, you know, hour. You know, early in the morning going through and going through the web and searching and understanding and seeing what's out there, see what other businesses are doing. I read the business journals and the Wall Street journals and, and understand as far as like what's out there, what's some of the different trends. So I think continuous learning is you have to have that passion for continuous learning. If you are not learning, if you're not putting yourself to learn more, then you know you're actually gonna be left behind. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's a good, that's a good one. And then the other one, it's, it's less of a question, but maybe a, a position statement, because I've been playing with this concept that tomorrow's more important than yesterday. And I'm not, and somebody took exception to that and they said, oh, yesterday's important too. It, it absolutely is. But tomorrow is more important than yesterday. So what would you, what, what would your feeling be on that? I think it depends on the context, right? Uh, so it, it, it really depends on the context of that. I, I think that, I think that yesterday is really important to understand because I think history does repeat itself. And I think you have to learn, um, from the past. But I think that you can't dwell on the past. So I do think that it's, there's truth in there is that tomorrow is more important than yesterday because you have to start thinking about the future. You have to think about taking all that history and all that knowledge from your past, which is yesterday, and how to apply it into tomorrow, and what are the learnings, what are the, the things that you're gonna apply and how you're actually gonna change as an individual, as an employee, as a. Husband as a wife, as a child, as whatever, you know, you need to kind of think about tomorrow. Yeah, absolutely. And what I like about the statement for me personally is that, is that it's what we do today that shapes tomorrow. And that that could be learning from the past, just like you said there. So it's, it's awesome. I really appreciate you spending some time with us. Tell, tell 'em people about Rulesware real quick just so we can wrap up with that.'cause we covered it. But Yeah, so Rulesware is a consulting company. Um, we focus on, um, really from a Pega technology standpoint, but we also. You know, are, uh, very, uh, partnered with, uh, active ops, you know, uh, which does ai, you know, from a workforce management and operations standpoint. And we're also a GCP partner. Um, you know, we are a specialized partner that is, uh, you know, we have our nearshore offices in Latin America. Um, so since central time zone for. Everyone in the United States, um, you know, we really kind of specialize in helping transformation, you know, everything from, you know, AI change management, but really around, you know, what our specialty is, kind of our slogan is start smarter, scale faster. And from that aspect, and we've talked about the last kind of podcast around data. Is leveraging your data and AI to actually then drive improvements and faster implementations, you know, through scaling faster to actually get the results. So, you know, we are a company that's really kind of focused on, you know, on the results, you know, on your outcomes as a business and, and driving to make you successful. We actually work with you instead of against you and, uh, we look forward to, uh, working with, uh, other partners or other clients out there. That's excellent. Thank you so much, Tony for joining us and for everybody watching, appreciate the time again. Uh, this was a great topic. It's, it's in our lives everywhere, uh, change management is happening, change is happening. No matter whether you're on board with it or not. Things are happening very fast. Um, the other thing I mentioned is we're, we're, I was noticing leaves starting to change colors, cooler air in the mornings, things like that. And I just urge everybody to start thinking about. Their hierarchy of values and you know, if you've followed the Habit Architect and, uh, and time bend it, you know that what I'm talking about. But get in front of that. So instead of a New Year's resolution on January one that you just thought of on December 31st, start thinking about what we can do tomorrow, uh, today and tomorrow to. To change where we wanna be and change management is one of those things that you need to think about. Uh, continuous learning. The things we talked about, uh, or Tony talked about are, are spot on with that. So thanks everyone. Be sure to go check out time band.io, get the book, uh, all that good stuff and we appreciate everybody here and we'll see you next time.

Tony Castelli: 32:06

Thanks everyone.