The Habit Architect
Hosted by Michael Cupps, The Habit Architect is designed to help you intentionally build the habits that lead to success and break free from those that hold you back.
Each episode, Michael guides you through practical strategies for designing focused, productive days that align with your goals and vision. Whether you’re striving for personal growth or professional success, this show will help you create the daily routines and mindset shifts needed to unlock your full potential.
Tune in for expert insights, actionable steps, and real-life examples to transform your habits and build the life you desire—one intentional habit at a time.
The Habit Architect
THA S02 EP#11 - Forget Hustling, Build Habits To Make Yourself Rich
What happens when your values collide with real-life financial pressure? Brent Hines, founder of the Foundation for Financial Wellness, joins Michael Cupps to explore how behavioral habits (not just income) shape long-term financial health. Learn how to build financial habits rooted in purpose, stop the comparison trap, and make money decisions with clarity, not chaos. A must-listen for anyone feeling stuck or financially stressed.
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Hello, and good morning. Uh, I'm Michael Cupps, host of the Habit Architect. Welcome to this topic. It's gonna be a great session today with, uh, with our guest who's gonna help us with financial wellness. And when we think about that, I, I wanna kind of talk to you a little bit less about the, me being a host and me being a human. Uh, as you might be able to tell from my hair. Looking at my hair, I've got, I've seen a few seasons in this lifetime. I've seen the good and the bad and what happens when you come outta college and then when you have kids. And the, these milestones that occur during life. You know, so I've put a roof over our head. I've wanted to pay for vacations, uh, accidents, sicknesses, things like that all comes up in life. Uh, and it's, and it's something you don't anticipate because when you're in your twenties and you're getting outta college, and, and let's just go back from my time. I remember sitting in an office in Dallas because I'd left Texas Tech, I'd graduated and. It was offered a job and I'm sitting in a room and there's an HR person walking us through all these deductions that might be current occurring on our paycheck. Uh, and certainly insurance and stuff like that made sense. And then there was this thing called a 401k, and I remember distinctly,'cause no one ever told me what a 401k was, uh, until I, I heard those words. And unfortunately at the time what I heard her say was it was a, it was a. Pre pre-tax deduction that comes outta your check and you don't get to take that home and most 20 year olds are, are more worried about the take home pay to do things that they want to do and play and stuff like that. Over the years, I've learned the value of what that actual 401k is and can be and what it means if the your, your employer's contributing and things like that. So all those things I did catch up and all, but it's an interesting thing because. I think I was not unlike a lot of people when you, when you got outta college or if you, if you got out of the service and you went in your first job, there's a lot of unknowns and, and planning ahead is sometimes the least, uh, thing we're thinking about. And particularly with financial wellness. And so, you know, in the, in this day and age, uh, in America in particular, we're living in a dopamine nation. And, and what does that mean? We want immediate gratification. So we gotta start asking ourselves, how do we balance that? So, you know. There are people that would rather scroll on their phone than take a walk in the park. There are people that are at a highest rate, ever addicted to gambling or day trading, and there's now addiction to food or addiction to shopping and things like that that have occurred all because of this dopamine rush. So the questions that we have to ask ourselves is how do we balance chasing a dream, uh, to, you know, supporting your family when you, when you have these challenge, these ba, these balancing acts that we have to do. You know, how do you balance today? What do you, what actions are you taking today that are gonna ensure tomorrow? And how do you learn what the best, best habits are there? And then most importantly, I think this happens to everybody. What happens when your purpose collides with pressure? So you have a car accident, or somebody buys the company you work for, and you have an uncertain future. How do you deal with this kind of pressure and these priorities? How do you keep it on track? Well, so that's what we're gonna do today. We're gonna talk to Brent Hines, who's gonna join us. Today, he's an expert in the behavioral side of money, uh, to help you figure it out, to help you think about ahead. Thank you. Think about what's, what's in front of you, not just what's uh happening today. So Brent is joining us. He's a TEDx speaker and he also founded the Foundation for Financial Wellness. And he's somebody that just understands the behavioral side of money. And, and so Brent, it's really good to see you. Thank you for joining us today. I know you're a little under the weather, so we really appreciate your, your participation. So nice to see you. Why don't you tell us a little bit about the story behind Foundation for Financial Wellness and, and Brent Hines.
Brent Hines:I, I appreciate it. Thanks for the invite on. Yeah. All just from my voice. I've got my finger on the mute button here as I am. Uh, try, I think I'm on the backside of this head cold, so, um, bad timing from that perspective. So I'll try not write everybody. Too, too crazy. You sound good. In a prior life, I was, um, in the wealth management business. I kind of joke that I'm a recovering financial advisor. I'm now 16 years clean, uh, 17 years clean as, uh, absolutely tripped into this industry that we now call financial wellness. It was not an industry back in 2000 and, and eight. I, um, I, I come from, um. Pretty, you know, financially speaking, uh, I grew up very poor. Um, single mom, uh, had great parents. They just weren't great together kind of people. And, uh, mom and I left and, uh, I'm from Texas originally, the Houston area. And, uh, mom and I got in the old, you know, beat up car and barely made it to, uh, her sister and brother-in-law's house in, uh, a little town south of, of Denver, Colorado back in 1985. Um, it was the best day of my life, quite honestly. Um, and I, I never left. Um, so I, I watched my mom struggle, like I'm sure many, many, many, um, people do, and anyone that's watching today, um, where there was more month than there was paycheck and, uh, you know, at, at, at 10 years old. People don't write checks anymore, uh, for the most part. But at 10 years old, like, I knew how to float a check, Michael, that, like, that's, that's probably not a good skillset to learn. But, um, you know, if you needed a day or two, you could write the check and then it would be in, you know, the money would be there before the check cleared thing. So I knew I wanted out. Um, I watched my mom struggle and stress and, um, she was a mama bear. Just, she would give me anything that I, she thought that I needed or wanted and, and would make bad financial decisions doing so. So, um, I wanted out, um, uh, of that socioeconomic environment. I really doubt at the time I would've referred to it as socioeconomic environment, but, uh, that's what it was. And, um, first, first person, my, me family to go to college. Uh, I, I worked my way in, um. Found the, uh, the, uh, student aid office and went in there a lot and they kept giving me what seemed to be free money. Um, and I worked my way. I go, Hey, what's the fastest way outta here? What I should go? I only one into the business school that, and it was harder to get into like, well see if I can get into the business school. Then I'm like, well, what, what majors are the business school I finance? That seems to be the one. Everyone's like, I'm gonna get the finance degree. And I really had no idea why I was doing it other than. That's what I think wealthy people must be doing kind of thing. Yeah. So I graduated from college with a degree in finance and a minor in economics. I could have discussed, you know, in depth, um, you know, trading strategy, you know, you know, uh, you know, weapons, grade, plutonium, futures, contracts. But I had student loans and a truck payment. Um, what am I, what, what are we doing here? Right. Yeah. So, uh, I, I fortunately went to work for a company that, um, did not allow, uh, I wanted to be a financial advisor. They did not allow, it was just an internal, uh, control me mechanism that they put in place. Um, you could not interface with a client and give advice if you had, uh, co personal consumer debt. Oh, wow. They, they, they would allow a mortgage if it was low interest. And tax deductible. That was the, the criteria. Any other debt, you cannot interface with clients until that debt is gone. Wow. So it was, it was uh uh, I feel like I got put through the meat grinder, but I did it. And it's amazing what you'll do if there's enough passion in later, we realized that emotion to get the emotional brain involved, and if it becomes important enough for you, you will find a way to do it. You will buy a bus pass. You will sell that. Beautiful truck that you had a, a truck payment on. Yeah. And when you sell the truck, you had to go to the table with money to get rid of it. Right? Like this is, this is like not fun standalone stuff, right? I, I have buddies sending, like, joking, playing the, the wheels on the bus go round and round, like they're driving to the least, you know, BMWs and I'm, I'm, I'm struggling. So, um, that, that's where this came from. Um, and the, the financial services industry as a whole. Was full of 90 plus percent male. Yeah. Um, they all looked alike. They all sounded alike. They all wanted the same thing. They needed money in motion, meaning asset center management that were rolling out a 401k or from another advisor. If a, if a person needed, if a family or per individual needed life insurance, they were gonna look for that because that's, so, that's something that was needed, but that was a way like. So you pick in those days you literally on the desk, you picked up the phone and you dialed and you dialed and you dialed and you called everyone you know, and burned every good relationship that you or your parents had built. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, that, that was, believe it or not, that's not what I wanted. So, um. I was the genesis of this. Um, I began teaching. I loved being in front of a room and um, like changing ideas, changing opinions, changing thinking, changing belief systems about money.'cause I sure had from my upbringing. And, um, I'm like, God, I wish I could do this. Instead of, and this isn't a joke. Managing money for unappreciative rich white guys. Sorry, rich white guys. Um, like you wasn't that rewarding. Come to find out, uh, in answering for a market I didn't control, so that, that's where this came from. I don't know if that resonates with anyone out there or not like that, that the industry is built for that. Yeah. You're chasing assets or you're looking for insurance needs, or you're looking for a planning need. And if you don't have that, like my mom was not a prospect for anyone, so where was she gonna get? Where was she gonna get something like, like this? So that was the genesis. Um, that was a long answer to your very first question. You probably were
Michael Cupps:No, I th no, I don't, I think the context is very good. And, and it's interesting because I was gonna ask you, and, and, and I, I wanna read. Rethink the question I was gonna ask you about. You know, a lot of young people today feel really hopeless, right? Because of what you just described. Student loan debt or, or things like that. But I also think it's that, that dopamine pressure too, because they watch TikTok and there's some influencer telling them, go live your best life, go travel, do all that stuff. And so they've got these, these. Reality versus kind of the, the, the fantasy. Um, yeah, and I was gonna say they have it worse than any, any generation, but I don't know. You and I both had to figure out a way, you, you know, when, when I needed a new car, I didn't have a choice of going home and asking somebody else for a new car. Right. I had to figure it out if, or like you said, get on a bus, do something to make it work. And I'm, so, I'm not saying it's, we're better off than them or worse off than them. I, I think it's just in, just, let's take young people in general. They're faced with a lot of pressure. So how, you know, what do you, what is your single advice? Or maybe it's not one piece of advice for those young people that just feel overwhelmed and they don't know where to go, where to start.
Brent Hines:Well, I have a 23-year-old, um, who is pre-med trying to graduate, um, his undergrad while while studying for the mcat. And I've got a 20-year-old who's a junior, um, and she's in the business school. And I, I, I hear what they, I hear what they come home with and like opinion, the questions they ask or the opinions that they have or the stress that they have. And sometimes I feel like, God, am I failing? How do you not, we, I do this for a living like you through osmosis. You should have known that, right. And no, no, it's, that's not the case. So, um, we teach, um, a model, the, the, the human brain typically for, like generally speaking, the human brain prefers modeling a framework Yep. Versus obscurity, right? So we create, years ago, we, we created a model called the financial operating system. FOS. And inside of that fi financial operating system, as we kept boiling down, it's kinda like when someone comes to a counseling a, a class or a counseling session here at the foundation, um, yeah. The problem they bring to the table is rarely the real problem, right? So getting below the surface enough, you almost have to almost go at least like three layers deep to get anywhere close to the core issue. Like, what is it, what's the problem we're really trying to solve, versus. A symptom that we're, that we're trying to just eliminate and when we get down to it, and I, I think like especially our Gen Zs today Yeah. Tend to be very much dialed into their values. Maybe more so than I was as a, as a Gen Xer. As a Gen Xer when I was their, their age. So I, I'm actually like. I'm really optimistic about their chances. Like I know a lot of the deck seems to be stacked against you. My son, especially the 23-year-old, all he, like, he goes so negative, so quick when he talks about home prices. I'm never gonna have a home. I'm never gonna, what am I gonna like? A starter home in Denver Boulder is, you know, $700,000. Like, okay, well I just need 150 K to put down and I'm off and running, like, what am I supposed to do? So, um, what we have boiled down to. The basis or the foundation of the financial operating system. There's two things, values and vision. And those are, those are two terms that are oftentimes, I think, glossed over or looked at as maybe a little, you know, hokey or a little too feel good kind of thing. But they're not, yeah. Uh, values are yours. They're, they, it couldn't be more personal. They're, they're about you and what you most value. And the cool thing about values is, is they have, if, if they're really your values, you have. Really strong boundaries around them to where you, like no one else gets to tell you that they're right or they're wrong, or they could do better. Your values are your values. Now, your values may change. They may, they may mature, um, they may get blown up at some point, and you have a life change. I know I did, uh, at one point. So your values is where everything starts from. And then there's this concept. Um, Michael, you and I have talked about this in, in your coaching practice. Um, the power of the idea of alignment. Yeah. We, we compare and contrast alignment versus agreement where agreement is futile, agreement is short-lived. It's, it's rocket fuel. It's like. You know what I mean? It's like, like a motivational speaker versus your true, like deep rooted values kind of thing. Values, if, if we can get aligned on values and what, what are we aligning with values, everything else in the financial operating system. Yeah. So what is it that you most want in life? Your vision that's bigger than goals. Yeah. Um, are, are they aligned with your values? Are your goals aligned with your values? Um, is what you want to have in your financial life. The home, the car, the, the what? The income, the network, what the, whatever it may be. Is that aligned with your values? Is your behavior aligned with your values is the way that you're being We, we, I love the methodology and it's in our, in our financial operating system of be you have, yeah. Being, doing, having, so the being is the six inches between our ears. Is what I'm thinking. What I'm choosing to think and what I'm choosing to believe is that empowering. It is in, is it in alignment with my values? Yeah. So
Michael Cupps:I I I love that Brent. I, you know, you and I have talked about it, and the values thing is an interesting thing to me as, as you know, and, and when I try to help people through whatever they're doing, uh, and however they wanna be, it's, it's funny to me when I say, what are your values? They, everybody says the same thing. Well, health, wealth, family, you know, tho those three kind of hit the top three every time and, and. Unfortunately, that's where you don't stop, right? Because what, what does family really mean? What does health really mean to you? What does wealth really mean to you? And you almost have, like you said, you have to go three layers deeper, right? So why is family the most important thing to you? Why is wealth the most important thing to you? And then, and then turn it into a, a statement of action, right? What are you gonna do? How, how can you live to make sure that that value is persisted every day? And it's a weird, it's an interesting thing because I don't think, I think it's atomic habits and all these books out there, talk about the mechanics of doing something. It's that pre-work that I think gets you in the mindset to do it a little bit. And it sounds like you do that with your, with your program and, and helping people understand not only you know what you gotta do, but why you're doing it.
Brent Hines:Right. And, and we, we distinguish between what's that fast, hot burning fuel of motivation or of want versus that slow hot ember crockpot, not a microwave Yeah. Of values. Yeah, because look like you're gonna leave the motivational speaker, you're gonna leave the foundation for financial wellness class fired up. That that is, that, that, that, that excitement is going to wane. So are there hot embers in there that will continue to burn? And, and, and that's, for us, values is what makes us sustainable.
Michael Cupps:Yeah, so, so what do you say? I mean, if there's somebody that's kind of stuck and, and they, you know, let's just take a, let's say two years outta college and they probably got recruited to a company and there's maybe four or five of them that were recruited at the same time, somewhat doing the same jobs, but you see some that are doing acting differently. What, what do you think it is that stuck feeling? What is there, is there a way to get around that? Or, or when you see that in somebody, what would you, what would you advise them?
Brent Hines:Oh God. It's that disease of comparison. And I, like, I think back to myself in my twenties and, oh, I'm, I'm, there's part, there's, there was a season of me there. When I look back, I'm so disappointed in myself, but it was, the journey I was on was the path I chose. I needed to choose it and I needed to fail, and I fell flat, flat on my face and my life got reconstructed. Yeah. At the age of 33, which is another story, I was in the TED Talk. Um. Yeah. You know, I think, what would I say to my 23-year-old self? What would I say to my 23-year-old son? What would I say to my 20-year-old daughter and the guys that are out there, I, I still see him today. I, I turned 50 this year. Um, and we go to like a, a happy hour or a, a get together or a, a holiday thing. And, um, like, you know, like I still see them. Watching what car you pulled up in. Not all of them, but some of them. Um, and they, but they're, they're glancing at your wrist to see what watch you got on.. They're looking at your shoes. Um, you know what I mean? So, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I I think that, that, that, that, that's where you're getting to. And how do you, how do you get that to land with a, a young person that, Hey, look, as I think it was, uh, I'll give him credit. Dave, Dave Ramsey that said, Hey, as soon as you're. Broke Knowit, all brother-in-law is criticizing you, you know, you're on the right path. And I think that that applies to these guys too, right? Like yeah, they like, like they don't have a diamond in their name, but they rolled up in a lease brand new BMW or Mercedes, whatever, luxury car. And, uh, and who cares? Um, right, right. Who cares? But how do you get that across to, to a young person and like, I needed to lose it all. For it to land with me. When, when, when, when, when I lost it all. I had a five-year-old and a three-year-old, and a wife who was scared to death. And I felt so much fear and so much failure and so much, uh, like shame. Yeah. That I was ne I had to hit rock bottom to never want to do that again. So that's a pa, that's a, that's a hot burning. You know, uh, a value of mine, Michael. You know, I, yeah, I don't know. How about you? I'll, I'll, I'll flip the tape. And what,
Michael Cupps:well, you know, you just said it, it's interesting. It's interesting where I live in, in Texas, I live in the Dallas area. And, and what you described, and, and I know this is gonna be general and I don't mean to insult anybody, it lives there, but you just described plan. Right. Everybody's trying to drive the, the, the, the right car, get the right watch, you know, have all of the things. And, and again, I don't apologize to, if you live in Plano and that's not the way you feel, I didn't mean to, but that's, at one point, Plano had the highest credit card debt of anywhere in the country. Right. And they still may do it. I don't know if that's the case or not. And I don't live in Plano, by the way, so I, I'm not contributing or not contributing to that, that stat. But the, the point is that they, uh, that, that. You just, yeah. I think you opened with that word comparison is the first thing you need to do is stop comparing yourself to others. I mean, Facebook I think was, is. The antithesis of comparing. Right. You know, it's because they never put the bad things up there. Right. They rarely put the bad things up there. Yeah. So it's an interesting thing. I, I think, I think you're right, that comparison game is, is a, is a losing game, right? There's always gonna be somebody that has something that you don't have. And so what I think you're right. Go back to the values, uh, and then figure out how to get there. So if somebody were to, to, to. You have somebody come through your program, what are they? What are they? Where do you start with that? Um, uh, you get the values. They identify what, what's important to them, what's the next step?
Brent Hines:Well, the first thing we do is triage. We stop the bleeding. Is there something critical going on right now? Is there something critical in nature?'cause you know what normally will bring someone in is the, like, you know who, whoever's the, you know, the, the latest and loudest pain point is what'll bring 'em to a class or counseling. So let's address that. Then, okay, let, let's, let's put a turnt on that. Okay. Take a deep breath. Are you willing to, are you willing to do this right, or are we just treating a symptom? Yep. And, and, and if they're willing, if they're willing to do this right. If, um. We back in 2010 when I tripped into this, uh, I met a lady who is a, um, truly an expert in financial wellness programming. Karen Meyers is her name. She's a, she was literally a rocket scientist for nasa. She ran the employee wellness program at Johnson Space Center and, um, she introduced to me, um, the, uh, behavior Change theory, uh, created by Dr. James Prochaska, uh, an MD doctor. Uh, and it, it's referred to as, uh, the Trans Theoretical Behavior Change model. It's a mouthful. Uh, really what, what he, what it boils down to is he, he developed, okay. What I'm seeing are people have these stages of readiness. Not everyone is ready right now to make a change. Yeah. So you can't make someone ready. You can put your arm around them. Right. And you can feed into them, and you can meet them where they're at, and you can speed up the process of when they get ready. But when someone's ready. To make a change. And they really are willing to, to start at the foundation and change their life, their life's trajectory of financial wellbeing. They're normally the number one stressor in their life, um, that we go to values and vision. We go to values and vision. And if somebody really buys into that, and, um, we also know that behavior change starts with small wins, like the quickest win that we can get to build upon where you can see that your values is actually creating the output. Is more financial wellbeing, less financial stress, then they're willing to be like, hang on a second, I might go give that, I might give, I might give that another swing. And then two becomes three becomes six becomes 10 wins in a row. And the next thing you know, we're like, you're the habit expert. Um, we, we begin to change behaviors and create better habits at that point.
Michael Cupps:Absolutely, absolutely. Consistency and, and just is, is most, most important there. So are, are there two or three, uh, habits that stand out in your mind that. Let's start with maybe the negative are, are there two or three habits that you see people that are getting into financial struggles and stress that, that just pop up almost repeatedly?
Brent Hines:Uh, yes. And uh, most people probably aren't gonna like the first one. Um, it's the B word. I'll warn you. It's coming. Um, they don't have a budget. Yep. Um, and there is so much we lovingly refer to it as head trash around budgets.'cause most people, there's a negative connotation around a, a budget, meaning like most people think they associate budgeting with constraint or not having fun, not wanting what I want. It's, it's a, it's a form of discipline that, you know, like, God, I'd rather just go grab and we all have our vices, right? I, I really rather go grab a, you know, a pumpkin spice latte from you nowhere than. Then make a cup of coffee at home as an example, or eat out instead of taking a lunch or whatever it may be. Uh, so we, we talk about it as like, tell me like, um, if we can think about budgeting differently. It's really cash management. If you were a business, if you treated your personal finances as you incorporated Yeah. Right. Domiciled in Dallas, Texas. Um, you wouldn't run a business without a budget. You'd be out of business, you'd be bankrupt. So why is it as individuals, we think we can get around the budget where the smallest to biggest enterprises on planet Earth build budgets live by budgets for a reason. And the reason that they use'em is because they work. So again, I'll reference Dave, Dave Ramsey, telling your money where to go instead of wondering where it went really works. Yeah, it's actually the opposite of those negative connotations. It is you being in charge. It's you being proactive. I'm the boss. I get to say where these dollars go. I don't allow my emotional brain or the dopamine hit that's coming, um, to dictate what I do, what I buy, how I spend the money, et cetera.
Michael Cupps:Exactly. Yeah. That, that makes perfect sense. I and the budget, I, it, it's, uh, when you said that, I was thinking, you know, it's, it's like somebody that wants to lose weight, right? The first thing you have to address is diet, right? And, and your diet is a budget, so to speak of, of what you're gonna intake and then you can marry that with other things. So I'm guessing there's other things you can do, uh, after the budget, right?
Brent Hines:For sure. And the second thing I would do is say, start keeping score.. Try it. Yeah. Zig, zig, zig Ziglar. Set it, aim at nothing. You'll hit it every time. So it would be the, the analogy to, to health, physical, he health and wellness, if it's weight loss or getting in, in shape again. Right. Yeah. Like it, it's hard to, uh, outwork a bad diet. It's also difficult to out earn bad financial decisions. Yeah. And I'm gu I'm guilty of that. Like I came from the world of producing. I still do own the business. We can go out and bring on new clients, sell more like, yeah. I, it, it is exhausting outearning stupid decisions. I'm here tell you. Yeah,
Michael Cupps:that is, that's a great analogy. Yeah. So I like that a lot. So, yeah. And the budget is your grounding piece, right? So it, I mean, before you make another dumb decision, you can, you, you can, you have somebo something there that can validate that.
Brent Hines:Once the budget started to work for me, budget eventually became a value. So I, I value, um, the stewardship, um, that there's this bigger play also, that I value the stewardship of those dollars in and out. Yeah, it's a value of mine. And you can't tell 'em, you can't, no one can tell me that my values are wrong, right? That's one of the beautiful things of value. So I get to value that and that if it's, if it roots from there. Then all the decision is just so much easier to align with, with that value. That doesn't mean I don't live, that doesn't mean I don't go to Starbucks. That doesn't mean I don't, you know, uh, I, I just, I, I budget for it. I allow myself this much fat in fat in the budget, if you will, right? Like, yeah, and there's something freeing too if you haven't done it. Like, if you go, okay, I know this much money's coming in, this much money has to go out, bare bones minimum. If you actually give the dollars that you're gonna blow on fun stuff. Give it a name. Oh yeah. And place it somewhere. Yeah. There's, there's so much freedom in not having guilt 'cause you're like, no, I was supposed to like those dollars on fire.
Michael Cupps:Yeah. Yeah. It's it that, that's what I've, I do a, uh, session on breaking bad habits and the first thing I tell 'em to do is give that habit a name, name it, name it. That way you know what, you know what it is, and you've just, that the reverse is what you're doing there. I, I love that idea because you're right. Once you make it what it is, if you, like you said, if you burn it, you burn it. But, you know, this strikes me as interesting. I, yesterday I was, I was driving here in the LA area and you know, I was probably only going. You know, four miles away, but it took an hour and a half and so I, I was just scanning through the radio stations trying to find something to listen to. And what struck me as odd, 'cause I was thinking about our conversation today is most of the commercials that I heard were, were of three kinds. One is debt relief, right? Uh, there was a lot of debt relief advertisers. There was IRS. Troubles relief, which I guess is more legal and something, and then the others were the, when, when I hear the financial services, there's fiduciary people, there's stockbrokers, there's banks, uh, and all that thing. I mean, there's a lot of stuff out there for somebody that's kind of stuck in this, this, you know, financial problem. Uh, I mean, do you have any advice about all of that? Is it just tune it out and just focus on the budget? Or is there something else that you would recommend?
Brent Hines:No, I, I, you know, that's, that's the reality of financial services is that they're, they pedal products or services to people who are in desperate need or people with wealth. And there is enormous, it's more than, it's not 20, 20 80, it's like probably 95 and five. Um, and, and then all these financial products or services, it's almost like, I would say a junk drawer, but it's more like a warehouse. Like if you were to open a. Or like if you walked in the cockpit of a 7 47 and if you're not a pilot and you look at that, it's overwhelming. Like, I, what, what's, what do I do first? I don't know any of this stuff. It looks complicated, but if you understood each individual button, lever, knob dial. Yep. It's, it in and of itself is not all that complicated normally. So, um, again, it's almost like the comparison, the comparison thing is, um, with this, like, don't try to understand all of it at once. And if you have friends, influencers, family, neighbors, colleagues, whoever who you, you hear them, you know, the, the water, the water cooler talk. That's probably not a good analogy anymore. No one under 40 know if they, uh, like, and they're talking about their stock pigs or they're, um, they're talking about this new startup that they invested egg or a, a private equity deal or like, don't, don't get racked around the axle with any of that. Like, if you can make, keep it about you and the power of focus and baby steps are still steps. So, um, when we start with that vision, that those values and vision, and then we're like, okay, so what can we start on first? And if it's harnessing your income, it's telling the money where to go. It's a, it's a, it's a cash management plan. It's knowing that, okay, I'm gonna get out of, first, I'm gonna get rid of the consumer debt. Um, I'm gonna take the 4 0 1 KII am gonna get at bare minimum, least the employer match. Like, there's these first baby steps that are so easy to do and even though you might not be able to completely or complete them right outta the gate in one step, yeah, you're getting closer to them. So, like, I don't mean to dismiss fi financial services. I'm a finance guy. Like I love that stuff. I'm a nerd. Like I, I love the complicated. Derivatives based supply, like all of it. I love startups. Like I've got a gambling, I got a gambler personality. Right? Like to a fault I started a business that's stupid. Like Yeah. Right. Statistically that's dumb. Why would you do that? Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I like, forget all that noise and you can't take 'em like you, you're not supposed to be doing all of it. Yeah. Like, that's not what it's for. There's only certain ones that apply to you and the ones that apply to you apply to you now. And what's most important to you, and do they align with that? And, um, yeah. So we go into our, our B two have model when we're looking at all the financial products and Yeah. Just because it's licensed or just because it's legal doesn't mean you should be doing it. Yeah, yeah. There might be an, an alternative way. Right. So that, this is why we built our, all of our educational curriculum was so that people could come in and get educated in a safe environment, not being sold. So we love to give the good and the bad and the ugly on any of it. Elimination. Credit consolidation, credit counseling, uh, cash, uh, accounts. Um, 401k. Any of it? Mortgages. Reverse mortgages. Social security. Yeah. Wills trust. What's a durable power of account? Like, oh, oh my God. What is all this stuff? Yeah. One
Michael Cupps:at a time. One day at a time. Well, that, that's exactly right. And I, and I hear it a lot. I, I've got kids that it sounds like a little older than yours, but not, uh, not much. And I hear the doom. The doom seeking, right. There's no way I'll ever be able to afford a house. There's no way I'll ever be able to do this and this. And I think that that. That, uh, catastrophizing actually makes it worse. Yeah. Because you step back and say, okay, what can I do today and tomorrow to, to, to get on a path to buy that house and stuff like that? I think it, it's a little different because it, it, it is hard in our world today for young people to. To stop doing that comparison game that we talked about earlier. Earlier. So I, I wanted to ask you, uh, we're, we're, we're, we're doing good on time, but I wanna get it to this because what I'm really fascinated about, and, you know, with Timeand, and I'm doing some stuff with employee benefits, um, we're trying to help with other programs that help employers help their employees. And it, I know you now have an employee benefit program around the foundation for financial wellness. Can you tell us a little bit about that and why it's important?
Brent Hines:Yeah. Um. For starters, for all the employers out there. Um, stressed employees are expensive, period. Um, and we have the, the, the data to support it. And the number one cause of stress for employees are finances. So financial stress is the elephant in the room. I give I keynotes all around the, the world. I'm very fortunate to have been able to, to do this. Um, and the bottom line and sometimes the, the title of the talk. Is the return on investment to the employer who invests in their employee financial wellbeing like financially? Well, employees are beneficial to the bottom line of the employer and it shows up. The variables are, um, there's a direct correlation, by the way, in fi, financial stress to health outcomes. Yeah. And outside of salaries, um, health insurance coverage is the largest and most volatile of the expenses, right. Um, of the employee expenses, right. The cost of an employee. So there's healthcare cost issues. Um, there is also productivity, there's absenteeism, there's something called presenteeism. You're physically there, but your mind's somewhere else, right? Employee turnover is an enormous cost, and we can tie all of these to their financial stress. People are leaving employers to go elsewhere for like the equivalent of 50 cents or a dollar more an hour. In wage. Right. Just because the, the urgency of right now, I, like, I, that's their version of triage. I gotta get this problem fixed right now. Yeah. So we, we said, how can we get this to more people? In the early days we were just meeting one-on-one with folks and then we'd get inside of maybe like a church you teach or we get inside a union hall and teach or a, a community center and teach and, and then an employer asked to send once. And then you fast forward and, and we look up and I'm from the Houston area again. Uh, in 2010, uh, we got invited into Johnson Space Center to teach the, and we, at the time we were doing financial education, not financial wellness. Yeah. Meaning it was miss, it was missing the behavioral science. It was education, it was good education, but it wasn't driving behavior change, science backed behavior change. So, um, that's what spurred us to, to create an offering that employers can bring us in. Make us available to their employees, just like any, any of the other group benefits.. Um, so we can go in a couple of ways. One, we can come in as a standalone program. The employer pays us X amount, you know, it's normally per employee per month kind of thing. And then we launch and every employee gets their own online portal. Um, and they come in and they, they take their own as it, it's all HIPAA compliant. It's private, confidential. They can take, uh, financial health assessments. The financial health assessment result then tells us how to best communicate with the employee so that we're speaking to them about things that are relevant and employ to them. We're not trying, Hey, you know, we're not trying to, to, like, we're hammering, everything's a nail. Like one size does not fit all, obviously. Then one thing that we added about a year or two into the program, so around 2012, was in the employee wellness space. Not financial wellness. Wellness. They had these things called interventions and they work and because they're those wellness plans that are, that are measuring these things. Um, Karen from NASA are infamous, rocket scientist, said, um, great. The foundation needs the, your needs, their version of a intervention. So we created one, a counseling program. So anytime an employer brings us in, every employee, 100% inclusive, um, they're entitled to one-on-one private counseling with a certified financial wellness professional that we have vetted, trained, and they passed a mastery level exam and they stay current with continuing education. And everything we do, um, is non-solicitous meaning. No one is representing a financial firm or a financial product or service. They're representing the nonprofit, the foundation for, for financial. And our goal is to drive behavior change. Like we want to improve outcomes through behavior. Yeah. So, um, employers can bring us in. There's also, I don't know if you wanted me to go here, Michael, but, and these, these wellness plans. Yeah. So we just learned in the last six months that, um. Financial wellness can qualify to be embedded inside of preventative health and wellness plans that end up being no cost to the employer and actually end up creating additional take home pay for the employee who participates in the program because it allows for reimbursement be uh, through the plan, which is post-tax. So I'm sure we would bore everyone to tears if we got into the complexities of the IRS structure, but. Just remember, this can be a net zero cost to the employer. Sometimes the employer actually has a, a decrease in their f attacks. Yeah. Obligations. And the employee has more take home pay. By participating in the financial wellness program, it's like, oh my God, that's like three dominoes falling in a row. Like boom, boom, boom. There's three. So, um, we're very excited. We're starting to get inside of more and more organizations like as we speak, and, which is great for us. We don't care how an employer brings us in. We just want 'em to bring a sense so we can get in front of other people and start educating the counseling.
Michael Cupps:I think it's an interesting point that, that you bring up because I think there's a lot of companies that just think benefits packages, what four one k offering do we have? What health plans can we offer as options? And, but I think employer employees now are looking for more from their employer. Like you said, I think our, our kids today are, are more grounded in their values than we were when we were their age and so. These things are important to them, and, and a lot of them have these dreams and just think about if you employ a re a relatively young workforce and you're show, you're helping them find a path to achieve all of those, those goals, not just what they're doing tomorrow for the, you know, the sales team or the marketing team or whatever, but their long-term goals, they're gonna stay there. They're got, retention is one thing that I think is, is a, is is something that employers are overlooking. They don't overlook the fact that they need to retain employees, but the way in which they can help their employees want to be there, I think changes. So.
Brent Hines:I agree. And, and until very recently, they may have intuitively, the employer may have intuitively said, well, I get it. No, they're stressed about money. We give 'em a 401k, we give'em a, a health insurance. We give 'em group life, disability, law, you know, all those things. But what goods the prescription if they won't take the medicine. Yeah. That like, that's really at the, at its core. Or the old saying, my grandfather would say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make a drink. And then he would say, unless you salt desserts. And the, the salting, the oath would be, why don't you speak to your people about what actually matters to them without trying to sell a financial product. Yeah, so nothing against financial products, but that, that was the gap that we filled when we stepped in and go, let's do something so completely different. Um, let's, let's increase 401k participation. Let's increase elective benefits because we're educating people and we're meeting them where they're at, and we're meeting one-on-one con confidentially with someone who is absolutely an expert in that field and is not trying to sell them financial product or services. Like what a concept. Right? But there what? There hasn't been a solution until, until recently.
Michael Cupps:Yeah, absolutely. So we're, we're running outta time, Brent. I've really enjoyed this way. I could talk to you. For another hour if we, if we had the time. Love it. Yeah. Um, I, I am asking all my guests one question now, and it, and it kind of, I think you, you probably think about this every day. It's that the idea that tomorrow's more important than yesterday, and the, the, the grounding of that, and why I'm playing with that con conversation is because it's, it's hard to think about, you know, we, we tend to dwell on yesterday and sometimes that cost us what we're doing tomorrow. And so I just wondered if I, I throw that statement out there. Tomorrow's more important than yesterday. What would you, what would you say about that?
Brent Hines:Oh my God, I, I, I, I mentioned it earlier. I gave a Ted talk on this. I blew my life up at age, at age 33. Um, I was that guy with the watch, with the car. Yeah. Uh, really not building wealth, but, you know, um, and it was such a house of cards. It was a paper tiger. Um, and I, I did start over and I was forced into getting back to my values for, for my. Second act right for this. Everyone loves a comeback story, and I would say, you know, you're, tomorrow is more important than yesterday. And in doing so, like consistently, consistency beats brilliance nearly every time. So trying to find the perfect investment, the perfect job, like consistency wins nearly every time. So can you be more consistent today than we were yesterday? Will we be a, a baby step more consistent tomorrow than we were today? Yeah, follow the model. Pick a model, pick ours, pick someone else's, build drone. Pick a model, pick framework for your brain and, and be a little better tomorrow at that than you were today. It works. Yeah, it works.
Michael Cupps:Absolutely. Thank, thank you for that. And why don't you, uh, I know we've had it scrolling, but just in, just in case, uh, how do people find you and find your, your foundation?
Brent Hines:Well, the best way to reach to find me is, is, uh, my LinkedIn profile. I'm, I'm pretty active there. Um, and then our organization, the Foundation for Financial Wellness. The address is foundation for financial wellness.org. It's a mouthful, but once you get it in there, it'll pre-populate again after. Yeah. And we got a lot of free resources for you as an individual. Uh, you can come in and join our community if you want to on your own. Um, if you want to take us to your employer, make an introduction. We can come in and do continuing education. We can do some lunch and learns. You could be the hero for bringing us in. They don't have to do work, work with us, but they should know that we're out here doing this. So, um, we'd love to know any and all of you, if you want to get involved with us, uh, reach out. Please do. Yeah.
Michael Cupps:Well, thank you for joining me today. Good luck to the Colorado Buffaloes. For those of you that don't mind, don't know, Brent is a big Buffalos fan, so good luck to them, uh, playing ease of luck right now. Yes, exactly. Uh, dude, please do subscribe to your podcast. Uh, so you get all of our, the, the Habit Architect episodes. So whether it's follow, subscribe, whatever the mechanism is, if you're watching those on Spotify or Apple, we appreciate you doing that. And so everybody have a great week and we'll see you soon.
